Fully Alive, with Susie Larson

Good morning, my friend. It is almost Christmas. I'm Dr. Lee Warren.

I'm so excited and honored to be back with you again for some self-brain surgery.

Today, we've got part two of the incredible conversations I had with Susie Larson earlier this year.

We're gonna talk about her unbelievable book, Fully Alive.

This is one of the most important books I've ever read, one of only two books

that ever made me stop my vehicle and write something down, as we discussed.

And I think it'll make a difference in your life if you haven't heard this before.

This is an incredible conversation.

And since it's Advent, and since we're looking for God, and since we're trying

to figure out who He is and where He is, and He's coming, and we know He's coming,

then I think talking to Susie Larson, one of the most Christ-filled people I've

ever met, is appropriate for today. This book's going to help you become fully alive.

This conversation, whether or not you read her book, getting to know Susie a

little bit is good for you.

And I'm just amazed at the way that she brings Christ into everything that she does.

So we're going to get after it with part two of that episode,

Merry Christmas. We love you and we're praying for you.

We encourage you to reach out to the prayer wall if you've got something going

on in your life and you want people all over the world to be praying for you,

wleewarrantmd.com slash prayer.

And we will be back tomorrow with more for the folks that are struggling a little

bit. We're gonna bring you some stuff this weekend too.

And we pray that you have an amazing and peaceful Christmas.

And if you're in the middle of something hard, we're praying for you. We love you.

We're grateful for you. Let's talk to Susie Larson about how to become fully

alive. And let's get after it.

Hey, are you ready to change your life? If the answer is yes, there's only one rule.

You have to change your mind first. And my friend, there's a place where the

neuroscience of how your mind

works smashes together with faith and everything starts to make sense.

Are you ready to change your life? Well, this is the place, Self-Brain Surgery School.

I'm Dr. Lee Warren, and this is where we go deep into how we're wired.

Take control of our thinking and find real hope. This This is where we learn

to become healthier, feel better, and be happier.

This is where we leave the past behind and transform our minds.

This is where we start today. Are you ready? This is your podcast.

This is your place. This is your time, my friend. Let's get after it.

Music.

And I'm so excited to have another opportunity to speak to our friend.

Susie Larson's here with me today. Welcome back to the show, Susie.

Such an honor to be with you. And I told you off the air that your podcast has

made a massive difference in my brother's life.

So thank you for the work that you and Lisa do so valiantly. Honor to be back.

So grateful and grateful to be coming back to your show.

We're sharing the stage a bit for the summer. So I appreciate it.

Your new book is just Closer Than Your Next Breath has made such a difference for me.

And I've heard so much feedback from the listeners about the last time you were on the show.

And I asked you if you had time to come back and talk about one of your previous

books called Fully Alive. And I'm so thankful that you did that.

I'm going to tell you a story about your book, Susie, in a second.

But before we do that, is it okay if I say a prayer for you so folks can know

you've been not feeling great and you're doing such good work?

I think we ought to start with prayer for you. How about that?

Thank you. I would love that so much. Thank you. Father God,

thank you so much for our friend Susie and the amazing kingdom work that she's

doing with her life and her husband.

And I just ask you to put your hand on her and lift her her up and heal her

body and defeat this bacteria or virus or whatever it is that's been troubling her.

And thank you for giving her the stamina and strength to get through this interview

and conversation today, Father.

I just ask you to continue to open doors for her and break down barriers and

get your word out through her mouth and through her heart into the world like

you've been doing for so long now.

We're very grateful for her and we know you love her very much.

In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Thank you, Lord. Amen. Thank you, Lord.

Okay, I want to tell you a story. Two different times in my life.

They both happened this calendar year.

Once I was in my truck driving, and the other time I was in my tractor mowing.

We have 300 acres, so I have to mow a lot.

Wow. I just hired somebody to help me with that. But so six months ago,

I was listening to the audio version of John Bevere's new book, The Awe of God.

And I was driving down the road on my way to my friend's house,

and John said something so profound that I stopped my truck and wrote it down.

And it was this passage here about the fear of the Lord being a counselor in your life.

And it's this passage that I think will resonate with you. It talks about how.

He says, if you look at today's society, we have great and intelligent men and

women making decisions that are steering those they influence into ruin.

At the same time, others are blind to their foolishness. And scripture states

that in rejecting holy fear, their minds become dark and confused.

And he says, when we firmly embrace holy fear, we have an ever-present,

constant-flowing counselor of

wisdom that gives us the ability to make enduring, beneficial decisions.

Isn't that beautiful? Beautiful. Wow. I stopped my truck and wrote that down.

He tells the story about that.

And it reminded me of last time you and I talked about Sarah in the Old Testament

and how we could be focused on her mistakes, but the New Testament focuses on her faith.

And John talked about that story about King Abimelech. You know,

Abraham lied about who Sarah was.

And so Abimelech takes her as a wife and God protects him from,

you know, sinning with her.

And the reason he protected him is because Abimelech had the fear of the Lord

and he believed in the Lord even though he was the king of this other country.

So that long preamble to say this, that I'm listening to your book,

Fully Alive on My Tractor, a few weeks ago and you said this passage about,

when God says to cease striving, to be still and know that I am God and you

said, for the first time in my life, if I heard somebody say this,

because I've always heard that passage and read that passage in the context of.

Calming down and being quiet.

And I think about it like I would talk to one of my kids when they're upset,

like, hey, calm down. It's okay, buddy. It's going to be okay.

But you pointed out that the context in which David says that is God saying.

Thundering through the chaos of battle. And I want you to talk about that because

what you said was so profound, like God's not whispering here.

He's getting our attention in a mighty powerful way. So that's part one of what

I want to talk about is like lead us through that concept of what's happening

there when God is telling us to cease striving.

I have holy goosebumps just as you're talking about it. But if you don't mind,

I could let scripture speak for itself.

Can I just read the passage? because I too, you know, have read that Be Still and Know That I'm God.

I've got songs on my playlist that are subdued and calm, and I've seen beautiful,

I'm very visual, I love seeing outdoors,

you know, and so I've seen scenic paintings in a serene setting with that verse,

so that's always the context in which I've seen the verse until I read it one

day, and it was thundering off the page.

And just, I want you friends to think of the chaos of the day that we're living

in, and as even referring to John Bevere's quote, I had him on my show to talk

about that book, but just people in power and the blind leading the blind at times.

God is our refuge and strength, always ready to help in times of trouble.

So we will not fear when earthquakes come and the mountains crumble into the

sea. Let the oceans roar and foam.

Let the mountains tremble as the waters surge. A river brings joy to the city

of our God, the sacred home of the Most High.

God dwells in that city and it cannot be destroyed.

From the very break of day, God will protect it. The nations are in chaos.

Here we are, right here and now. Their kingdoms crumble.

God's voice thunders and the earth melts. The Lord of heaven's armies is here

among us. The God of Israel is our fortress.

Come see the glorious works of the Lord. See how he brings destruction upon the world.

He causes wars to end throughout the earth. He breaks the bow,

snaps the spear, burns the shields with fire. desire, be still and know that I am God.

I will be honored by every nation. I'll be honored throughout the world.

The Lord of heaven's armies is here among us. The God of Israel is our fortress.

When you put it in context, Lee, his voice is thundering over the chaos,

over the wars, over the threats of powerful people in that.

And in that in fully alive, I did a breakdown study because I was battling so

much fear around the symptoms I was dealing with and see striving,

striving, let go means several things.

Cease striving and be still means to let go, sink down, relax,

and in some cases, be quiet.

Now, if you're hyper-responsible like you and I are, we're not ones to just

chill, easy come, easy go. We'll just see how it all works out.

I don't wing anything in my life. I just, I don't. So that seems irresponsible

to let go, to sink down, to relax.

But I want you to think about the places where you're so restless. Yes.

Maybe you're striving around finances or with a teenager or a young adult or

in your marriage or in your weight.

In the places of striving, there will always be soul unrest.

And so those are the places where it takes more faith to let go than it does to engage, right?

And so to let go, you're not just flinging it into the atmosphere.

You're turning it over to God. Let go. And then you sink down into the Father's love.

Because in Ephesians, it says, to know this love is to be filled with the fullness of God.

And so often in our soul unrest, we're thinking, I need that thing to be okay.

I need this resolved with my son or my finances or my marriage or my job or

with the politicians or whatever.

I'll be okay when these things are resolved. But it's to know this love is to

be filled with the fullness of God. So you let go, you sink down, relax.

Again, that seems irresponsible, but there's times when rest is literally an act of warfare.

It's such an act of faith, right? And then I say, be quiet.

And it says that in the original translation, but I, And my just interpretation

and thoughts on that is when your own words are bearing witness against the

promises of God because of your soul unrest, better to stop talking until you

get your heart put right.

And know that he is God. That word translates to experience and encounter God

in the very place of your soul unrest.

So when I started to see that passage in the full context and understood what

that meant, it literally was an act of faith of moving into the rest of God

and then letting him fight for you. And I think that's powerful.

When you were talking about that, it occurred to me that most of my life,

when I've been under stress, I press the gas harder, right?

I dig in deeper. I fight harder. I strive more because I think I got to get

through this time and then it's going to be okay after that.

And I think that's exactly the message he's trying to give us is let me fight this battle.

Let me take care of this for you. And you go on in that chapter to give us insights

into Psalm 23 that I'd never heard before.

And just as a profound idea of when David says he prepares a table for me in

the presence of my enemies, I never really thought about what does that mean there?

And give us that little context of the idea in most armies and most kingdoms

is the king's going to throw a feast before you go off and get killed in war

back in the safety of his palace, right? Yeah.

Right, exactly. And if you don't mind, if I could back up even a little bit

more, because it was in that place, the reason I was telling that story was

in the worst parts of this physical battle.

And again, the symptoms, neurological symptoms, as you know,

as a brain neurosurgeon are terrifying.

And so when these things, these fireworks are going off in my body,

and at this point, when I was writing Fully Alive, we didn't know,

they thought Lyme, but they thought this looks a little different than Lyme.

It was a resurgence of Lyme, but it it was other things as well.

I was terrified. And there's times where God just seems silent.

I'm like, you got to give me something here. Give me strategy.

And the three things he talked to me about, he just, I mean,

they thundered in my soul.

He says, you rest while I work. You feast while I fight. You wait to take flight.

And so you rest while I work in the places of restlessness was Psalm 46.10. Learn what that means.

When you're restless, you rest and let me work for you. You feast while I fight.

Well, it's that Psalm 23, 6, you prepare a table for me in the presence of my enemies.

And yes, when soldiers would go out to war, they would feast because it would

be a long time before they would have nourishment.

And some of them may die on the battlefield.

And yet, when you think of our battlefield, that you prepare a table for me,

I did a word study on that.

And it's a king's table for private use by invitation only.

So if you can picture yourself yourself on a battlefield.

And, you know, when I'm speaking on this, I tell women, you know,

I want you to imagine you're in the gladiator pit, you know,

where they used to throw Christians for sport.

And you've got these arch doors and over each arch door is there's your fears.

It's abandonment, exposure, rejection, whatever your things are.

And you hearing the lions in the shadows and they're about to be unleashed.

And you see that enemy coming at you and he's got his eye on you.

And the fear is visceral because you're like, I'm outmanned.

I'm outnumbered. I'm in such such big trouble.

But then you start to remember the authority that you have in Christ.

You say no to rejection and that cage drops down and the lion slinks back into the shadows, right?

And you say no to abandonment. I'm not going to let my life be dictated by fear.

And then you remember, and then there's this gate. I'm just painting a visual

because it helps me so much.

But you feel the warmth of God's presence and you turn, you see this glowing

gate and you remember the scripture, open up the ancient gates and let the king of glory enter. her.

And so you say, you know, you say no to these fears, but you say yes to Jesus,

come onto my battlefield and try to picture him with fire in his eyes,

preparing a table for you on your battlefield.

And that enemy suddenly sees that you're not alone.

And he gets smaller and more shriveled as he comes your way to the point where

he turns and he cuts and he runs.

Because when Jesus prepares a battle for you, a table for you on your battlefield,

you're reminded that you are are an heir of God.

You are a child of God. There's not one battle that you'll face alone.

And I just paint a picture of the fruit and the bread and the wine and all the abundance.

You taste and see that the Lord is good. And I think in practical ways,

when you're on the battlefield, the enemy wants you focusing on your fears and

projecting your fear in a future that God's not in, which I got really good

at until I decided that was destructive for me.

But what he wants us to do is collect all these fears.

And if you haven't resolved some of your past trauma in light of God's love,

it's like an open loop in your heart and in your mind and your brain.

And it's easy, pray for the enemy to accuse God with your story.

And if those are open loops where you haven't resolved the goodness of God in

those things, then the next temptation will be when you're stirred up to project

your worst case scenario fears into a future that God's not in.

But truly, for a believer, there is no such future that God's not in.

That scenario doesn't exist. It's the enemy who's threatened by your future.

But you can take the bait so fast when you don't know what you have in Jesus.

So I say that when you're on that battlefield, first of all,

you need to take your authority and take authority over the spirit of fear because that's not from God.

He's not giving that to you. He's giving you power, love, and sound mind.

So I say clear the battlefield of all the enemy junk so that you can discern

clearly how to navigate this battle.

And when you do that, first you shut the enemy up and then you taste and see that God is good.

It's, you know, submit to God, resist the devil. He will flee.

And then remember the ways that he's been faithful because when you suddenly

recall your history with God, you'll understand that you have a future with him too.

That's exactly right. We describe the definition of hope or the component parts

of hope in my new book as being memory, like remembering what's God done before.

I'm not the first. This is not the first time I faced this fight.

It's not the first time somebody's been in trouble and God came through.

And you see it all through the Old Testament, people recounting.

If the Lord hadn't been on our side when that happened, we'd really be hosed now.

You know, he's constantly remembering and then moving. Pick up the fight because

God's going before you. I love it.

You know, this month on our podcast, we're talking about getting this idea that

what got you here, or whatever this place is in your life that you're stuck

in or you're afraid of or whatever's happening that you haven't been able to navigate,

what got you here won't get you there to the place that you feel like God's calling you.

So what you just said, listen, friend, what Susie just said about resolving,

if you haven't resolved these things from the past, then it's going to be really

hard to move forward into the future with God.

So Susie, what are some tools we can use to resolve some of that stuff,

that junk that's hurting us and holding us back in the past?

I really believe that, you know, counselors, spiritual directors,

trusted friends where they're safe, like Dr.

Kurt Thompson says, people who say, I'm not leaving the room,

that you can, you know, work these things through.

And one of our old retired pastors used to say, don't freak out when you get

stirred up, because it's like something will happen that will poke at you.

And I always say, I think I've said this in this book, but also my Strong in

Battle book, that God will allow an overplayed enemy attack to position you for freedom.

You know, the enemy is is on a short leash. And there are times where the Lord

will allow the enemy to mess with you, and it'll stir you up.

And the temptation is to numb out, shove it down, create a diversion, find a way out.

But my old retired pastor used to say, when you're stirred up,

he said, don't freak out and don't get full of condemnation.

It's really the Lord reaching into your soul, pulling that thing out,

saying, see this, I'm about to deliver you from this thing.

And I think we shouldn't fear those parts of our story because we serve a healer.

We serve a God God who loves us.

And he's so intent on our healing. And there's a study note in one of my Bibles,

one of my several translations. This one's the New King James Version.

And it says, salvation is God's rescue of the entire person.

Healing is the complete repair of that person. And I want to share something.

I mean, if you were on my show, I would ask you this question anyway.

So if I'm going to turn it around and ask you what you think about this,

because I'm super curious what your thoughts are.

But I went back to a counselor friend of mine during this.

Relapse eight years ago, just a handful of sessions because I was traumatized

by it and I was hurt by God that he allowed it.

And I just, I had to deal with some of that stuff, you know?

And I was in the fitness world for 12 years.

So I'm a fitness minded person. I love to work out and I fight for it because

I want to feel well and I want to show up and do life.

So to have lost, I mean, I had so much inflammation in my body.

My muscles atrophied really fast. I was I was having word find issues.

It was just devastating. I just felt like my life was, you know, shriveling.

And this counselor friend of mine, she said, think back to the most recent memory

of when you felt most alive, most fully alive, most yourself.

And this is before I wrote that book. And I said, oh, you know,

it was like, I think it was a month ago or whatever.

But it was, I said, it was like a fluky day.

I woke up and I had energy and I've been, had so much inflammation,

so much neurological junk that I was exhausted.

And I'm a cyclist. I like to bike. And I used to bike hard and fast and hold

a good pace and all of that. I don't do that as much anymore.

But anyway, I woke up feeling so well that I hopped on my bike.

And I don't know, I think I did 20 miles, but at a really good pace. It was sweaty.

I like 90 degree heat. So I had sweat in my eyes and I was riding through puddles.

So I had dirt on my legs. All that made me so happy.

I had worship music in my ear. And I was like fully myself.

And then after that, I went and floated in the lake and just worshiped. And it was a fluke.

It was just a fluke. And the enemy wanted me to say, feel like,

you know, this was God pulling the football out, you know, pulling the rug out,

like, you know, you don't have this, but, you know, but what she was suggesting

was that this is a taste of what restoration might look like.

And as I sat with that, I thought these are the, some of the things that I've

lost was just a clarity in my worship and the offering of being able to exercise

and feel healthy. And the rest I felt after.

So I decided to try this on my radio show.

And I opened the phone lines and I said, tell me about your most recent or the

memory that stands out to you when you felt most fully alive.

And you can't believe what happened. One woman...

Just sounded so broken and exhausted. And she said, well, the memory that's

coming out to me is she said, when our family was crammed in this tiny little

car with no air conditioning,

we were sweating, we were crushed together, and we drove to this cabin that

had no air conditioning, but we were together and we played games.

And I asked her more questions. And the things that she was lacking were adventure and her family unity.

She had moved far across the country. All she did was work and didn't get any

kind of time with her family.

So, and the Lord was showing her, this is a little bit of what your restoration is going to look like.

Another woman called in and said that she had this, she's very shy,

very conserved, you know, just didn't take very many risks.

But when she went on a motorcycle ride with her husband, it was way out of character.

And I said, what does that stir up in you? She says like excitement and fear,

but she said, I don't take risks. I said, what is God saying?

She's like, I think part of the restoration and healing of my soul is he's going

to take me on an adventure of faith. And I've kept in touch with with her.

And that's what happened.

All that to say, I feel like part of resolving some of your wounds and your

hurts is to think, I just dare you.

It's not a proven exercise, but it's so interesting as I try this with people

in conferences as well, that if you were to look back at one of the moments

when you felt most fully alive, and then look at the places where you feel like you don't have that now,

just bring it before the Lord to say, is this a picture of what restoration and healing?

Is it an analogy or a metaphor for what you might want to do in my my life.

And it's proven true for me. He's restored so much of what I lost in that season of life.

I'd love to know your thoughts. Well, that's a legitimate self-brain surgery technique.

You know, the idea of what we call it in the neuroscience community,

they call it directed neuroplasticity.

So you can take how God designed your brain, which is designed to heal.

We forget that. And we allow inertia to make the new neurons that we make every

day wire into the same old patterns and and habits because we don't transform our mind.

We don't take charge and let God transform us.

And I think what you're describing is God's process by which we can make,

attach something he's done before or something he's showing us,

a promise that he's trying to give us, and we can do that self-brain surgery

to say, okay, it's been this way. I've been harmed.

I've been hurt. I've been stuck.

And God's given me a vision and I can focus my thinking on that new vision and

God will help make that a reality.

So I think you're describing exactly how your brain's designed to work to make

healing pathways happen in your brain.

You know, And as you said, I think in one of your books, neurons that fire together, wire together.

And it's exactly how we make new realities in our brains.

And God does that in our spirit at the same time. He whispers to us and says,

hey, it doesn't have to be this way anymore, Susie.

It can be a different way. You just have to think on these things and you have

to let me turn it into a reality in your life. I love it.

I think it's so precious because it's like, you know, what brought me to life

when I thought thought of that memory, wouldn't do that for everybody else,

but he knows me and he knows how much those moments meant to me.

And so after that, I found a picture of a woman who looks a lot like me.

She had her bike helmet on and she's coming around the corner and I put under

there stronger every day and I have it at my desk still now.

I see the visual every day.

And I just wonder if someone's listening today, if there was a moment,

because I think if you frame your disappointments and even your blessings in

an unredemptive narrative, I think you'll live that that out.

And rather than seeing that as a gift from God and maybe a vision for the future

of what restoration might look like, you write it off as the best days are behind me.

And I just think, yes, these are trying times, but God is well able to restore

our soul while the nations are in chaos.

He's well able to restore our soul, our relationships, restore some kind of vitality to us.

But if we're not looking for that, if we're not aspiring to what God might want

to do and it's through us, we won't contend for it, you know?

Wow, that's exactly right. That's so powerful, Susie. Thank you for sharing that with us today.

The Fully Alive book, like who, if somebody's not read it out there,

like what's your aim with that book and who do you want to read it and what's it gonna do for them?

I would say it's an inner healing book. And one of the lines that the Lord gave

me in my own battle was what happens in our soul happens in ourselves.

And it turns out I'm friends with some doctors and I'm glad to call you a friend

as well. But I ran it by them and they said, it's exactly right.

But it was just something the Lord spoke to my heart because I battled with

so much fear with the unpredictability of the symptoms and past trauma,

which I shared in a previous episode with you.

And it was just, and I really believe that is why God allowed this second phase.

I mean, when I've shared this part of my story, people have gotten offended

with God. Like, why would he allow this?

Well, there's a lot of suffering in the world. And I believe he allowed this

to bring up, you know, the storms reveal the lives we believe and the truths we need.

And I mentioned that on our last episode that, and that was really the prevailing

message in Fully Alive is that when that stuff brings your stuff to the surface,

it's an opportunity to get free.

And though I'd done a lot of work because of the trauma and the sickness and

all of that stuff, there was still embedded in my soul that lie,

I can get to you anytime, anywhere, and God will never stop me.

That was still alive and well.

And so even though I'm a seasoned follower of Christ, I'm a serious follower

of Christ, I'm not joking around. I mean, I want my life to count for eternity.

To have that kind of in there left me so constantly vulnerable when the symptoms

would surge because there was a little bit of a mistrust of God thinking,

well, there's this wild card factor in my life that I have to endure everything I fear.

And when the Lord thundered through and said, that's just not true.

It's not true that he can get to you anytime, anywhere. And you don't even know

what I prevented in your life and how I've provided.

And that's where he said, I'm not gonna let you lose, but I have to let you fight.

And that's where I figured out the nerves that fire together,

wire together in my own life because my doctors were like, Like you have massive

inflammation in your body.

We're going to help you with that. You got to do something about the fear.

It should have been enoughly that scripture says don't fear,

but it wasn't enough because I viscerally felt so much fear.

But when I learned neurologically that when I'm embracing fear,

I literally am opening my physiology up to a cascade of inflammation.

That's what spoke to me. I hate to say it, but that is what spoke to me.

And I thought, and I'm like, Lord, how do I do this?

And he just gave me this picture of a road closed sign to put on my fear pathway.

And you obviously can explain this so much better. But in layman's terms,

you know, for me to understand that every time I travel, you know,

in fitness, I understand this because your body responds to the most consistent choices you make.

So if you work out consistently, your body will help assist with burning fat

and, you know, strengthening your muscle and recovering.

And if you don't do that, your body will help you not do that.

Right. So I already know that our bodies are very such amazing.

Fearfully wonderful, wonderfully made machines that adapt to our consistent choices.

So it made a ton of sense to me that when I traveled the pathway of what if

this leads to something worse?

What if God doesn't come through for me? What if? It went from a path in a cornfield

to a super lane, four lane highway because my brain could get there so fast

because I spent so much time in fear.

So to get the kind of visual of a road closed sign, and correct me if I've got

this wrong, but as I understood it, that when you stop taking that neural,

when you stop taking that pathway, your brain will delete that neural pathway after a while.

If you just, it'll shrivel or whatever happens, but you're not traveling that road anymore.

Your brain doesn't really have a need for it. So I put a road closed sign and

I thought, I don't care if I feel so much fear, I'm not having it.

I'm turning my back on it.

And I came up with this redemptive statement. God is good. His promises are true.

And he will always make a way for me. So every time my face would go numb, God is good.

His promises are true. And I formed a new pathway. way. And so to this day,

when my face goes numb, that's my instinctive thought.

Oh, well, God is good. And so I think for me, just understanding the physiology

of it all, that there are consequences to the attitudes that I embrace,

to how much I tolerate fear.

And I wanted to live. I have stuff I want to do.

And so that was the motivator for me to go, I'm going to reroute things in my

brain. So all that to say, Fully Alive, it's learning to flourish mind, body, and spirit.

It's an an inner healing book. I talk about shame and selfishness and self-hatred

and fear and the physiological consequences of those things.

And it's an invitation to heal and to trust God's love.

Well, it's the first Susie Larson book that I read, and I read it because you

were so gracious and kind to have me back on your show when my new book came out.

And you said something in that interview that reminded me or taught me that

you knew something about neuroscience.

And I started looking at your old books, and that seemed to be the one that

may have the most kind of brain stuff in it. And I read it, and it's aimed at women.

There's no doubt, gentlemen, if you're listening, Susie wrote that book with

a woman's bent for women's Bible studies. but you need to read it,

gentlemen, because it will help you change your mind and just move past the

female pronouns in that book because it's written for you too.

And I love, I think I said that to you last time. I love that your new book

is more sort of gender neutral, if you will, because there's so many men that

can learn from you, Susie.

And I learned a lot from you. Just this morning, I said something to my podcast

listeners that I think is relevant to what you just said.

From a neuroscience perspective, what we're doing, What we're actively doing

is what we're getting good at in our brains.

And what you just said, when you're practicing fear, when you're rehearsing catastrophe.

You are teaching your brain to develop circuits and pathways that will make

you more manifest those neurotransmitters of fear and running and scared and

hurting and hiding and all those things.

And you're making it easier for yourself to become a warrior,

become somebody trapped in that anxiety circuit.

And so what you just taught us is exactly right. Right. And it's exactly true

from a neuroscience standpoint, too.

You can change the way that your brain works by deciding, I'm going to put a

road closed sign on this. I'm not going to think about that anymore.

I'm going to let God replace it with something that's more true.

That's beautiful, Susie. Thank you for sharing that with us.

Well, you share that so eloquently, and it's, again, such an honor to have the conversation with you.

And as a lay person, you've learned the hard way, too.

I mean, I feel like you've got the blessing and the burden of having to walk

through such intense suffering, but the intellect as well to explain to us what's going on in our brains.

And so that's why I think your ministry is so powerful.

As someone who's just, I feel like I was the poster child for fear and insecurity, security.

And I never dreamed I could ever overcome some of those things.

And as the Lord just started to show me in his word that when you attach a negative

emotion to a painful experience and you leave it that way, unchallenged,

you're not bringing the gospel into your story.

And he cares so much about our story.

And I think if you just leave salvation to be a box that you check to secure

your eternity, you're missing the complete point.

And I don't remember if I said this the last time we were on together,

but during one of the late night surges of scary symptoms, I didn't want to keep Kev up.

I came down here and I was pacing the floor, quoting scripture, doing deep breathing.

And I felt like I was having repeated stroke symptoms. My heart was beating

out of my chest. The numbing was going up into my neck and my jaw. My tongue was numb.

The room was spinning. My ears were ringing at like a level 18.

And the pressure on my head was like someone had a vice and I had massive inflammation.

And at one point, I think it was like four in the morning, I'd been walking the floor all night.

And I said, God, you have to either kill me or heal me because I can't keep doing this.

And he whispered Ephesians 2.8.9. And most of you probably know 2.8.9, right?

Ephesians, for by grace, we are saved through faith, not of ourselves as a gift

of God, not a result of works, no one can boast them. I'm saying that fast.

But anyway, I said, I don't mean to be sassy, but I already know that verse and it's not helpful.

And I really didn't mean to be sassy, but I'm like, I'm dying here.

You know, God, you got to give me something.

And the Lord, I mean, I felt the fear of God. And I wasn't being sassy.

I was just being like, I...

I don't know how that's helpful to me. And I know I'm saved,

you know, and he pressed into my heart and he said, look it up.

And so I did a deeper word search early in the morning. And for by grace,

we are saved, as you well know, Lee, is sozo.

And it means so much more if you look up the original translation,

what that means to be rescued, to be delivered, to be healed,

to be made well, and to be saved from the penalties of judgment.

And I think what's so important to know that salvation is this active process

of rescuing, redeeming, healing, restoring.

And we need healing over and over again, because as one of my friends says,

life has a way of lifing you.

And if you just pray the prayer, check the box, and you're not walking intimately

with God as a healer and a defender, you are missing out on the potency of the gospel.

And I don't think you can help anybody else heal if you're not allowing God

to go after some of the stuff in your soul.

But when he starts to heal those places, you become a testament testament and a trophy of his grace.

And that's when people ask about the hope that's within you.

If they don't see any hope on you, why are they going to ask about hope within you, right?

You can talk all day long about stuff. But when God does something where it's

like, let me tell you who I used to be. Let me tell you how I used to be.

I mean, when people see you now who knew you when, and they go,

there has to be a God in heaven. I knew her that. I knew people to say that about me. Right.

And, but it's all glory to God. I mean, cause he takes broken people and broken

things and, you know, he makes them beautiful again.

And wow. Yeah. I'm in awe of that.

Amen. That's beautiful. One last thing while I've got you, Susie,

you in your writing and in your speaking and just in conversation with you,

you frequently reference things that God has said to you or revealed to you.

And some of us are from a more background.

I'll tell you mine. My background as a child was really, I would say,

fundamentalist, almost a group.

And we were taught that you hear from the Lord in the word. You don't hear from

the word audibly. You don't hear from him in your heart. You hear from him on the printed page.

And I've learned differently as I've grown up. I've heard from him in different ways.

But you and John Bevere, again, I will say, and Addison and Bevere,

his son, says to me all the time, God said this to me, how do you help someone learn to hear?

This is a big question with not much time left. How do you help us learn to hear from God?

And what do you have to say to somebody that says, Susie, I don't ever hear from God like that.

What do you mean God told you this? How does that work?

I love that question. And I pray we can take a few minutes because it feels

really important to answer it. First of all, I'm cautious of people who talk like that all the time.

Like everything is thus saith the Lord, because I have a healthy fear of God.

But Jesus also does say, my sheep hear me, they know my voice.

And so, and I didn't have the context growing up.

I didn't have an evangelical context. I forged my faith reading my Bible under

my bed sheet because I was part of a denomination where you weren't even allowed to read your Bible.

You know, You had to leave it to the leader, so to speak.

So, I mean, I knew nothing except that I'm reading God's word and asking him,

make yourself real to me.

I didn't have anybody tell me what I could or couldn't do in that regard.

And that's when he would impress things on my heart. And I just learned to trust

the voice of the Lord through peace, the power and the presence of the Holy Spirit.

It's like if I lacked peace, it was like, you know, scripture says,

let peace rule and reign in your heart.

Well, that translates, let peace be the umpire, like blow the whistle.

If you're out of bounds, let peace be the umpire. All of a sudden you realize, I don't have peace now.

And so as a young believer, I just paid a lot of attention to the peace of God or the lack of it.

And there were just times there were impressions or little nudges.

I've never heard his voice audibly either before.

But the more that I listened to his voice, the more clear it became because

I'm in his word every day.

And I think it's a highly dangerous proposition to say that you even hear from

God at all if you don't know what his voice sounds like in the word.

And one of my favorite stories is A.W. Tozer, who he was so curious.

He's like, if God is no respecter of persons, how is it that some go on to do

great things for God and overcome amazing hardships while others stay stuck

in their stuff and never do anything for God?

And he searched biblical history and contemporary history and found that these

differences were as stark as could be.

One was black, one was white, one was rich, one was poor.

But the common denominator had something that he called spiritual receptivity.

They cultivated a listening life.

And when the Lord spoke, they did something about it.

And so I would just say, get to know him by getting to know his word.

Believe with all your heart that he does speak. And when you feel the slightest

nudge, respond to the Lord, because I think it will bring a clarity to your voice, to your heart.

And I think one of the ways you know it's God is it surprises you.

It's like you think I'm not smart enough to come up with this.

And I want to say one last thing about this listening prayer.

Just at my events, I've done this. I don't do it at large conferences,

but at retreats where there's a more intimate setting where I have women open

up to a journal page, and I have them right at the top of the page.

My precious child, I want you to know that I, and I qualify this.

I'm like, we're about to, I'm gonna put some music on. We're gonna do a listening prayer.

Just to be clear, you're not writing the Bible. The Bible's already been written.

And if you hear God say, I want you to get the red Corvette,

really, I want you to have it.

I mean, it's probably not him, but I wanna set the groundwork here that I really

believe there are some things that the Lord wants to speak to you about.

And if you do this as a practice, you should be in the word every day,

constantly, so you know what his voice sounds like. But I'm just asking you, would you try?

Now, this was at one of those fundamental churches, Lee, and where the pastor

did not allow the people to clap.

Music. They weren't even allowed to clap in worship because it might get out

of hand. So they would hang like white knuckle grip to the chair in front of them.

And it was very stiff, if I can say. Just it was a stiff atmosphere.

And I wondered what I was doing there, truly. The Lord called me.

But the women were ready.

They were like looking like, okay, we're ready. You can be quiet now because we want to do this.

But there was one girl looking at me, like giving me, she's shaking her head

blatantly and she had slits in her eyes. and she looked like she hated me.

And I was ready to do the music and the Lord whispered, make one more prompt

that everybody participate.

So I said, I just really believe God has something to say to each and every one of you.

So we put the music, I prayed, we put the music on and within 15,

20 seconds, that woman in this very conservative setting was on the floor weeping

and wailing and her arms are flailing.

She's like, oh God, oh God. I mean, it was like the woman with the alabaster

It was so out of context in that setting.

You know, it was so jarring. And I ran down to her and I got another leader

and we whispered, what's going on?

And she said that at 17, she was pregnant out of wedlock and her church leaders

brought her before the board and said, you've done it. God will not speak to you for seven years.

And they excommunicated her from the church. And she says, I'm only three and a half years in.

And when you were talking about listening prayer, I hated you because I have

three and a half more years to go. And she said, but then you made that prompt.

And you said, I just think God has something to say to each one of you.

And she said, I put my pen to the paper.

And she said, what just came out was that wasn't me.

I love you. I miss you. And she fell on the floor and she was worshiping in

the most expressive way that just made my knees buckle.

And I feel like if you're not, I just disagree theologically with people who

say he only speaks in his word.

I just disagree because I've seen too much. and I will never,

I won't be able to make it voice.

But I know myself enough to know that if I'm walking in the flesh,

I'm not gonna trust what my promptings are, but I'm walking in the spirit.

I know the voice of God because it comes with peace and oftentimes correction and conviction.

It's asking me to do something that's counter to my flesh. So I think start

with believing that he does speak.

You know, what about the scripture that says he confides in those who fear him?

What about Jeremiah 33, three, Call on me, ask me. I will tell you things you

do not know about times to come.

There's so many other passages that speak to a divine download from God himself.

So I do take the stance that he does still speak today. I'm still cautious.

You're not going to hear me say, Lee.

I've got a word for you, and I know this is God. I mean, there's times where

I'll say, I get a sense of something. You take it and you test it.

But this is a sense that I have as I was praying for you. I do that a lot because I pray for people a lot.

So I know that's a big conversation maybe for another whole show, but that's where I land.

I think you're exactly right. I read two books recently on the topic.

One was Dallas Willard's Hearing God, which is powerful.

And the other was Extraordinary Hearing by Greg Pruitt. I don't know if you've

ever had Greg on your show. He's the founder of Pioneer Bible Translators.

He's translated the Bible into multiple languages.

And his book is about learning to hear that. And he said, number one,

God's word will never, his word revealed to you will never contradict scripture, right?

Yes. And number two, it almost always happens after you've spent extended periods

of time in the word and in prayer.

And most of the time, it's on behalf of somebody else and not for your own personal benefit.

That's good. I think those are consistent with my experience too.

Yeah. Yeah. And Pete Greig would be another one you want to look into.

He's the founder, his group founded the Lectio 365 Bible app,

which I think is phenomenal, but I've had him on.

And he, I think is an expert on hearing the voice of God.

And he also gives guidelines about, he'll never ever speak to you that's out of line with his word.

And he does speak through other people sometimes.

I mean, I feel like when I had you on the most recent time, if you listened

to that show, I could almost not hold it together.

God was speaking through you

to to me, so profoundly, you could hear my voice crack and he does that.

So I don't want to miss out on what he has to have a healthy fear of God that

I'm not going to presume upon him, right?

And so I just want to be careful with that, but I know he still speaks.

Amen. Susie Larson, it's always such a treat and a pleasure to have you on the show.

And I'm learning so much from you. I'm going to go back and read a lot of your

other books and just grateful for you and your ministry and your family and

praying for the the complete healing and restoration for you.

Thank you, sir. So good to be with you. God bless you. God bless you,

friend. Have a great weekend.

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