Hope Talks: Laura Barringer

Good morning, my friend. I hope you're doing well.

It is August 12, 2023, almost halfway through all in August, and I had a great conversation

yesterday with a friend, Laura Berenger, who is a writer and teacher in the Chicago area.

Lisa and I had her and her dad, Scott McKnight, who's a well-known New Testament theologian, scholar, and writer.

Laura and Scott were on the show back a couple years ago now to talk about their book, A

called Toe, which is one of my favorite books that I read in the year 2021.

It was a nominee for a Christian Book Award, and they just did a great job.

And we had an amazing talk about church culture and goodness and all those things.

You can hear Harvey over here grousing a little bit.

He's decided to get up early, so if you hear Harvey, he's just saying hi this morning.

Anyway, we had a great talk yesterday about what to do when the massive thing happens.

Laura was just very kind to give an endorsement for my new book, Hope is the First Dose, and

it actually is one of those God things where I was sitting there, the publisher asked me

to gather some endorsements, you know, who do you want to seek endorsements from for

this book, and the Lord really put Laura on my heart as one of the people that her writing

had meant something to me, and I reached out to her and said, hey, I've got a new manuscript,

here it is if you'd like to look at it, and she wrote back and said a few days later.

Hey, this hit me at a time when I was going through a massive thing.

I was actually in the middle.

She called it the foggy middle of the massive thing in the middle of this thing.

And the book hit at just the right time. And it gave me some hope.

And anyway, we just had a long conversation yesterday about hope and about a treatment plan, about what to do when the wound is fresh

and what to do when you seem stuck in it. A few months later, Laura and I had a really good talk.

Hey, I got an announcement for you.

Wednesday, September 6 530 to 7 at the twig bookstore in San Antonio,

We're gonna be doing a live event a book signing at 5 30 to 7 p.m.

The twig is a great bookstore in San Antonio has been there a long time And we are so excited and grateful to be invited there 306 Pearl Parkway in San Antonio

If you're in this South Texas area and you want to come by and say hi, we would love to meet you

There's a couple more events that are happening that same week in San Antonio in the Burney area.

A live event with Max LoCato, and you'll be getting details about that soon.

We're going to give you the opportunity to submit some questions for me and Max as

we have a conversation about hope.

And then there'll be another book signing that weekend at the Burney Bookshop in Burney,

Texas, and I'll get you more information on that in a few days.

But I'd love for you to show up at the Twig. So really great honor to be invited to come there, and I really want to make sure they

have a good turnout Wednesday, September 6, 530 to 7 p.m. 306 Pearl Parkway in San Antonio.

We would love to meet you. We're going to settle in and have this great conversation, get you a cup of coffee or if

you're working out, get your headphones on and listen to me and Laura Berenger talk about

hope and what to do when the massive thing hits and how you can learn to be still and

know that God is there and she just has some great insight and wisdom about what to do

when you're in the foggy midst of your massive thing.

And the most important part of that is you can remember that you can't change your life,

until you change your mind.

And the good news about that is you can start today. Hey, are you ready to change your life?

If the answer is yes, there's only one rule. You have to change your mind first.

And my friend, there's a place where the neuroscience of how your mind works smashes together with faith,

and everything starts to make sense.

That place is called self-brain surgery. You can learn it and it will help you become healthier,

feel better, and be happier.

And the good news is you can start today.

Thanks, Lisa. Hey, so glad to have you listening today. I'm Dr. Lee Warren and I live in Nebraska

in the United States of America with my incredible wife Lisa, my father-in-law

Tata, and the super pups Harvey and Louis. I'm a neurosurgeon and an author and,

I'm here to help you harness neuroscience, the power of your brain,

faith, the power of your spirit, and good old common sense to help you lead a

healthier, better, happier life. Listen friend, you can't change your life until

you change your mind and I'm here to help you learn the art of self brain

surgery to get it done. If you like the show, please subscribe so you never miss

an episode and tell your friends about it. If you tell two or three friends this

podcast was helpful to you. Imagine how much good we can all do around the world together.

I'm Dr. Lee Warren and I'm here to help you change your mind so you can change your life. Let's get after it.

Friend, we're back and I am so excited to have another conversation with my friend

Laura Baringer is here with us today from Chicago. Welcome, Laura.

Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be with you again.

We had a great talk with Laura and her dad, Scott McKnight, Lisa and I about your book Tove,

a church called Tove a few years ago and just had a great deep conversation. That was one of my

favorite books of, I think it was 2021 that I read that. I'm just really excited to have

another opportunity to talk to you today, Laura. The respect is mutual. I really enjoyed both of

your books. Your first book, I've seen the end of you. I've recommended to so many people. It was,

such a moving memoir. I still remember some of the stories about your patients that are in it.

So, I appreciate your work as well.

That's cool. Actually, I just remembered this as you were saying that, but we were reading each other's

books at the same time. I think we'd both been nominated for the Christian Book Award and we were reading, I think you

posted on Instagram and I did on the same day. Yeah.

That's how I found you. Yeah. That was really cool.

So, you've got a new book coming out. Tell us a little bit about Pivot.

We're going to have an episode just about that, Lord willing, in a few weeks.

So talk a little bit about Tove and Pivot and the work that you're doing there.

Sure. So after Tov was released, a church called Tov was the book I co-wrote with my father.

It came out in 2020. Gosh, I'm losing track of the day. It's 2020.

And after groups and churches and organizations and people had time to read it and ingest it and

absorb it, they started asking us, what do? We want to have a church called Tove, a church that

is Tove, but we see some red flags, or we'd have lay people ask us, what can we do? Or people would

say, so how do we transform our culture? How do we form it into one of goodness? And that is,

God is Pivot is our prayerful and very best attempt to answer those questions that became

more and more frequent as the months went on after Tov was released.

Initially, I'm a teacher by trade, and I was not comfortable answering those questions at first.

But by the grace of God, I've learned a lot, had a lot of conversations with spirit-seeking

men and women who want to do the right thing and did a lot of research and a lot of talking

and reading, and that became Pivot.

Wow. I think it was really clever, too, how you worked the title. So I've seen the cover

of the new book, and of course, Tov is a Hebrew word that the Bible uses for goodness, good.

Yes. And so that was the church called Tov, a church that's good, instead of a toxic church culture

that we've seen so much of these days. In the new book, Pivot, the letters are reversed at the end

of the word pivot, and it was just really clever. Was that your original title, or did that come

about as you worked through the book?

Funny story, Pivot was our original title and I pushed against, my dad thought of it,

I pushed against it a bit because I said, Dad, anybody who hears the word Pivot is going

to think of the famous Friends episode with the couch scene.

I said, we cannot use that word. That's all they're going to think of.

My dad being absent-minded professor theologian said, I've never heard of Friends.

I have no idea what you're talking about. And one thing became the next and pivot one.

And we I really like the title so much.

I've adjusted or embraced it at this point.

And then as far as playing with the word Tove on the cover, that's a really fun story too.

My husband and I actually were out to dinner with some of our really good friends downtown

and where we near our home where we live one evening.

And I showed our friends, Chris and Brooke, as an artist, I showed them the cover designs

that had been pitched by our publisher.

And Brooke started playing with the word art a little bit, and she adjusted it so that

you could, the word toe really popped and pivoted backward.

And she sketched all this out in a napkin, and I took screenshots and sent them to our

publisher and they liked it. And that's how the cover was designed.

I can't wait for people to see it. It's really just jumped right off the page.

And if you've read the previous book, it just was an almost subliminal sort of awareness

that this is now we're turning our church towards this good culture that we want.

It's really well done. So congratulations on that. I can't wait to read it. Thank you.

I'm hoping you get an advanced copy so we can have a podcast about it soon. I can send you one.

Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. Hey, so people that haven't heard that previous episode or read your previous book, there's

a story of you all went to a big mega church in the Chicago area and it went through some

some, you went through some painful loss associated with some things that were happening in the church.

So tell us just a little bit of that story, because as we've talked about, my new book

It's all about these massive things that happen, and it doesn't have to be that somebody died.

It doesn't have to be that you got brain cancer. It can be what happened to you.

It can be something that hurts your heart and is a trauma in your life that comes about

because of church abuse or something else. So talk a little bit about your story and how the hopelessness and hope and faith and

all these things are intertwined that have happened to you in your life, Laura.

So 2018, it was March 2018, I remember it like it was yesterday, a story broke here

in Chicago in our major newspaper called the Chicago Tribune that my former pastor, Bill

Heibles, had been accused of sexual misconduct.

And initially my husband and I read the headline aloud to him.

We were driving home from dinner and we both just rolled our eyes and didn't really think

much of it and thought then I started reading the article and he was driving.

So I was reading it out loud to my husband and we got to the names of the women and.

We were stunned because we knew them and we knew most of them we knew and we knew that they were not the people that Willow Creek was saying they were.

They're not people that are going to lie to me and make up a story just to take Bill highballs down before he retires.

And that was the beginning of the disequilibrium for us. It was very confusing.

I naively at that point had not seen a church do what Willow Creek was doing.

Now I know it's a far bigger story than just Willow Creek, but protecting the reputation

at the expense of abused people was harrowing.

It was really hard to see. And I spoke out publicly.

My dad spoke out publicly. He had much, he still does, has much bigger platform than I do.

I have a little bit of a platform now, but I lost, it was painful.

I lost some really good friends because quote unquote, they seen me as taking the wrong

side that I took the side of the women instead of the church.

And it was a really, it was painful.

I hesitate to say that, even though it's true, because what I experienced was just a fraction

of what the women experienced.

I wasn't gaslit, gaslighted, but I lost really good friends that essentially broke up with me.

It was traumatic because I took the wrong side, according to them.

Yeah.

And so what happens in the aftermath of you lost your church, you lost friends, you lost

social structure and all those sociological things that we need our faith community.

And so you've written about the cultural stuff that churches ought to do, but what

about you and your husband and your personal life and what did that look like afterwards

and how did you find yourself not?

One of the things that I'm seeing a lot on social media is people are deconstructing

their faith and walking away from Jesus really because the church hurt them and you didn't do that.

So talk maybe a little bit about that, about how you find your way back to a relationship

but the Lord or what that looked like for you.

I understand. I understand that path. It was not my path.

I never felt like it was God's fault. That is what gave me hope and caused me to say what I said and write what I write, because

that's not the way of God.

Doesn't hide the truth. When people were wounded, like these women at Willow and all sorts of

victims of church abuse, when people were wounded, Jesus didn't.

Ignore them or change their story or ask them to sign a piece of paper that they could never talk.

He went to them and responded to them and he cared for them and he healed them. He still does.

And so as angry as I was at the leadership of Willow and Harvest Bible Churches down the road,

that one exploded shortly after the Willow Creek story, the Southern Baptist Convention.

I'm not, it's to me, that's where the hope, like the center of the hope lies.

It's not God. It's not Jesus. He's not, this is not how he would want churches and church leaders to behave.

He would, I believe so deeply in my soul that he would see a wounded person and he would,

care for them and heal them.

And he would talk to the leader who's been dishonest and confront the truth and confront

the sin and heal them too.

And it's not at all to discount. I've had friends who walked away from church because of the hypocrisy of leadership.

I understand that. It's not a journey that I took, but I understand the pain of it.

Yeah, I do too. And as I explored my own grief after losing a son, I came to realize how easy it is to

make that the only thing that you can feel in your whole life.

And I think that's one of the paths that church abuse is so devastating for, because you feel

like God has put you in a place where these people that were supposed to protect you have

injured you and wounded you, and that can become this massive thing that defines somebody's

life. So I feel for those people.

I just don't know how to help them all the time, because if you feel like God is the

source of your wound, what do we do with that?

I think what I have encouraged people to do is to separate God from the people that hurt you.

Spiritual abuse is a real complex, special kind of trauma. We've been hurt by the church, and I'm not going to say it's more painful than any other

kind of hurt. It's not.

But it's confusing, it's disorienting, it's hypocritical to be hurt by people who are

not supposed to be behaving the way they are. And they're saying they love Jesus, but they're behaving a different way.

I got lost on my train of thought. I forgot your original question.

How do you help people? How do you help people get out of that mess?

Right. Sorry. Separate what I've, and I'm not a therapist, but what I've told people is like, separate

God from the people who hurt you. Read the God of the Bible. Read the God of

Redemption of the Old Testament. Read the Gospels. And is this the way Jesus would

Jesus is not treating people the way that you've been treated by these church

leaders? I think he would be. I think he would be.

Walking right alongside you in your pain. That's exactly right. That's well said I sent you I guess a year ago now

I sent you a kind of an early draft of my new book and you wrote back and you said that it hit you at

a good time when you were in the middle of,

Something that hurt and so talk a little bit about you not to talk about that thing, but how you handle,

Hard things and how hope is important to you in that process.

Yeah, I received the manuscript of your book, like you said, it was last summer.

And I was literally in the fog of trauma. And I haven't talked about that publicly yet.

Maybe someday I will, but your words were, they hit me right where I was at.

And trauma landed me in the office of a therapist who is also a seminary trained and he is also

a spiritual director.

He's still my therapist.

And he...

Taught me, he told me, Laura, he said, don't waste your suffering.

This is months after I had landed in his office and I'd been venting for a few months, said

don't waste your suffering.

And I said, I looked at him, I said, what do you even mean? What are you talking about?

And he talked about, he said, there is a thing called post traumatic growth.

And he said, I want you to use this. So this is all happening as I'm reading your manuscript.

He said, I want you to use your pain and your suffering to draw closer to God.

And I was like, okay, I want to do that, but how? And so he said, I want you and I had the luxury of, or maybe I was a victim of my circumstances.

I was on summer break.

I was a teacher on summer break. And so I had endless days like where I didn't have a schedule.

So he said, I want you to go outside, which is where I spend time with God, sit in your

backyard under your canopy of trees.

I'm looking at them right now.

And he said, I want you to tell God everything like he doesn't know.

He knows, but tell him as if he doesn't know.

And I just, for the first time, I think I poured it all out.

Journaling helped me a lot.

I didn't get distracted so much, but I let God. I told him everything and I let him just sit with me in the pain.

And he, I just, we just sat like sometimes for hours and it was ugly.

There was crying. There was tear. It was really hard suffering.

You are no stranger to suffering. It's really difficult. But over as months passed, I would look back on that time and I was like, God slowly put

me back together.

Came coming out of the fog. I can look back at my journal entries now and now when I look at my,

if somebody could would do a handwriting analysis, they could just tell my journal

entries from when I was in the middle of my massive thing to what they look like now.

My handwriting was like, it was big, it was messy, it was like, wet, the pages are wet with tears.

And I didn't see the healing day by day. But months later, I could look back and

And I do believe that my healing happened because I sat with God in my massive thing

and just felt the pain.

That's so important. And friend listening out there, Laura's words are exactly right.

Like when I take someone to the operating room and perform surgery, that creates trauma

in their body that takes time to heal.

Even though I sew you up, the suturing is just part of the healing process, but there's

a lot of time involved, and if you don't heal properly, you're going to tear that

wound open, and it's not going to be okay.

And Laura, what you just described, sitting and spending time with God and allowing that

healing to happen and letting Him minister to you, that's so important.

And I think that's one of the things that we skip frequently, is we do all the things.

We do the therapy. We read the books.

We listen to the words of the pastors or the counselors or whoever, but we then just jump

right back into our lives and we get after it.

And I remember that story in Kings where David had just lost his little boy.

And you remember he was fasting and he was weeping and he was asking God not to let the boy die.

And as soon as the boy died, got up and took a shower and got dressed and went back to work.

And his counselor said, Hey, what are you doing? son just died and he said I can't do anything about it now I might as well go back to work.

And then if you look at the rest of the story that happened after that his family becomes a disaster.

Son rapes his daughter and another son murders that son and he starts a war and he has another

baby and all these things happen and his family falls apart. And I think that's because he didn't.

Heal from his trauma. That's really powerful. I know from when my massive thing hit, I resisted

it for a while. And not that I wasn't in a fog, but I just was like going about my life.

Posting on Instagram like everything was fine and it wasn't. So I get that because it's too,

it's so painful to sit there in it. But I don't believe that healing can happen like you talk

about in your book, like healing can't happen if you're not willing to sit in it and face it.

Yeah, that's exactly right. What do you think the difference is between hope and faith from your perspective?

Ooh, that's a really deep question. That's what I'm here for.

What is the difference between hope and faith? I guess I would answer like,

my faith gives me hope.

Without faith.

I just finished Ecclesiastes earlier this summer, but without faith, it feels like everything's

meaningless. Even good things feel meaningless without faith. I guess I don't see them as

different. I feel like they're, they mesh together in a Venn diagram and faith,

knowing that God is a God of redemption and justice. And one day things might look really

ugly here on earth, but one day he will take care of it, whether it's an illness or whatever,

it will be right one day.

My faith in that is what gives me hope.

I love that. I don't know if this will pass your dad's theology test or not, because I'm no theologian,

but somebody asked me on a podcast the other day, and I said, I think I would put it this way.

Faith is the belief that God can do the things that he says he can do.

And hope is the belief that he'll do them for me.

Does that make sense? So he can create the universe and he can say let there be light and he can create quantum

physics and all that stuff and I believe he can raise the dead and I hope he'll do that

for me and I get to see my son again.

To me those feel like two sides of the coin. That's beautiful.

Like I said, I don't know if it stands the theological test, but it's a working definition. I like it.

I like it. I don't know if I ever stand the theological test either. Yeah, I don't know.

Always make too much of things. So listen, going forward in your life, if you have a friend out there, somebody listening

who is in that place where you were, something just broke them open and they can't even talk about it.

What's the first thing Laura Berenger says, do this thing and you'll start to feel better?

What's your advice for somebody who just the wound just happened like today there's somebody

because that's going to happen somebody listen to this just found out they have a glioblastoma

or they just lost their husband or something just happened so what's your first thing?

Be still, know that, sit in it, accept it, find really good community that you can be

real with, be quiet and calm with God, and do what my therapist told me to do, tell him

everything your feelings the events like he doesn't know and let him be with you in it.

Yeah. One day my life is a testimony you might just look back and be thankful for what he took

you through because through suffering we know God better and through suffering he's no stranger to

suffering either. Through fear and through suffering he makes us whole. I really believe

that I almost can look back now and thank God for what he took me through because it led to

some really needed transformation in my soul. And there's a quote out there, I forget who said it,

is if you want to change, go through something really hard. But you may be able to say that

too about your son is it does lead, it can if you let it, lead to transformation.

That was a long-winded answer. But the first thing you need to do, I would say, is be still.

Yeah. That's what he says, Psalm 46, 10 was, be still and know that I'm God.

And there was this palpable presence, I can't even explain it to you, in the days after we

lost Mitch, where everything was so dark, when those still moments would happen. You're in a

big room full of people, and there's all these people bringing you flowers and stuff, and there's

in these inevitable moments when you're in a room full of people, but you find yourself

quiet for a moment and God is there.

I'm telling you, friend, you'll feel him there. When he says, be still and know that I'm God, Laura is exactly right.

He will minister to you even when you can't put your fingers on how he's doing it.

And you'll look back in time and say, boy, in that moment, I was so desperate and I just

all of a sudden felt a little bit of light.

And that was that sort of keeping of that Psalm 34, 18 promise.

And for us, this is interesting, too.

Once I found that I needed to think about the resurrection, like, I can't as a father

imagine not being able to see my son again, and the Bible tells me I'll get to, I'll

get to see him again, then that promise has to be true.

So then I started thinking, if that promise is true, then all the other ones have to be true, too.

So while I'm so broken, I need to find some promises that are for now.

And that was one of them, like the little toolkit of promises that are about right now

is be still and know that I am God.

It turns out to be true.

The Lord is close to the broken heart in Psalm 34, 18, and all those things, He's just close,

right? And He comes alongside you and holds on to you and it helps.

I heard another thing, not to take the whole conversation, but this is going to be interesting to you.

I read an article this week about the Hebrew, in fact, it was in a Suzy Larson book.

I was on her podcast the other day and she wrote a book called Fully Alive.

And she talks about that passage, be still and know that I'm God.

And the context in the Hebrew is all this stuff that God's doing.

He's blowing up mountains and he's smashing armies and he's all this battle metaphor and all this cataclysmic language.

And in the middle of that, he says, be still and know that I'm God.

And it's not peaceful like we hear it, like, oh, Laura, it's going to be OK, calm down.

It's going to be OK. It's not that he's saying, hey, be still.

I got this. Sit down. Let me take care of you. And it's this loud, powerful language.

And it's just that kind of transformed it for me and made it a little bit more powerful.

Is this not soft and gentle? It's power. I'm going to take care of you. Isn't that something?

It's beyond words. Yeah. It kind of raises the hairs on your arm. What do you think?

Yeah. I feel like I got chills. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Question for you. And I'm going to keep my word to you, 30, 45 minutes.

We're almost there. So here's a question.

We talked about what happens right now when the trauma just happened.

What about somebody that you know or somebody that's listening that it was six months or

a year ago or 10 years ago and they're still stuck in it?

And we talked about church abuse. We talked about loss.

And you have a friend who you see him five years later and that's still the only thing

they can talk about and they're stuck. What do you say now to that person? How do you

start to move past that stuckness?

First of all, I would recommend that they find a really good therapist, somebody who

does not let them stay stuck. My therapist pushed me and he sat with me in it.

He sat with me in it a long time.

But when he looked at me and said, do not waste your suffering, that's when everything changed for me.

And I think those are the words that I would share with another soul is like, have you

Have you really sat with God?

Have you really been still and quiet and dealt with the pain?

Have you? Because I resisted it.

And when I resisted it, I was angry and sad and raging and scared.

But not that I don't sometimes feel those things, but they have eased over time as God has healed me.

And I don't want to presume that a person who is stuck is not spending time with God.

I'm not presuming that at all, but I would say, have you been still and be still and,

cry and tell him everything and get it all out to him?

Have you done that?

Like trauma is really hard. Somebody told me that, maybe it was my therapist, that trauma is what happens in our body in

the absence of an empathetic witness.

And I believe that my husband and my therapist, they were that for me.

They sat with me in it.

And I would encourage somebody who's stuck to find a person to be with them in it, to

be vulnerable, let them see the feelings.

I love that I never heard it said that way trauma is the response of your body in the absence of an empathetic witness

I'm gonna steal that so Yeah

My therapist said like he said is I know of a trauma like I can help you through trauma. Yeah, he,

But it means confronting every ugly hard part of the pain and the fear.

Wow, that's exactly right That's an important point friend listening if you've been through trauma or complex grief or any of these things

Gaber Mate recently read a psychologist named Gaber Mate wrote, trauma is not what happens

to you because if you've been through something hard, church abuse or whatever Laura went

through, losing a child, you can't change that.

That happened.

It always will have happened. And if you think trauma is what happened to you, you're hopeless.

You can't heal from that because it happened. Trauma is your body's response to what happened to you.

And you can do something about that. You can find healing and hope again for that.

Laura, it's just a pleasure to talk to you again.

I can't wait for your new book and to have a chance to talk with you and your dad again

about that. Thanks for your time and honored to have your endorsement of my new book.

Thank you. I'm equally grateful for you and your ministry. And like I said, only God, right?

That hope is the first dose would land in my email inbox when I'm in the middle of my

own massive thing. So thank you. Thank you for your hope that you offer through what you wrote.

Amen. Thank you, my friend. Good to see you again.

Thank you. Same to you.

I told you that was a good talk. Laura is so wise and so godly and just a great example of what to do when you're hurting,

friend.

Just be still. God will minister to you. He will help you. He will help you heal and find hope again.

And it's a good thing. It's tov. It's a good thing to rest and let God help you.

Forget that sometimes he has to shout at us, like a kid that's going to run out

into traffic and the dad and the mom, the parent says, stop, stop, be still.

And it's not a calm voice. It's commanding, right? God wants you to stop and to let Him help you,

friend. You don't have to do this by yourself. If you're in the middle of that massive thing,

it's time to get some rest and to let God begin to heal you. I'm going to play Tommy and Eileen

Walker's song, Rest. This is one of my favorite songs. It also came out during that 2020-2021 era,

on their album, Highest Praises, which I would submit to you is probably one of the best worship

albums that's ever been written and recorded, and Eileen and Tommy wrote a lot of these songs together.

Tommy wrote many of them, Eileen wrote many of them, they wrote some together, and it's

a beautiful thing to see Tommy's daughter Eileen grow up and become such a powerful songwriter.

And this song, Rest, really encapsulates what Laura and I talked about in this episode.

Friend, sometimes it's time to stop running and fighting and stressing and straining and

worrying, and it's just time to rest.

Put people to sleep in the operating room because it's better for them to be

resting while I'm trying to help them heal. And that's sometimes it's what we need to do.

Just rest and let God take care of it.

Listen, I'm grateful for Laura Berenger.

I'm hopeful that her words will help you today. And I'm excited about her new book pivot.

That's coming out soon. We'll be introducing that to you.

But for today, I just want you to remember it's Sabbath. Hey, it's Saturday.

Rest. It's self-brain surgery Saturday. Rest. Let Eileen sing to you now.

God bless you, friend. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

Music.

Hey, thanks for listening. Please subscribe to the show so you automatically get every episode.

And if you like the show, you'll love my weekly letter.

Check out my writing at drleewarren.substack.com, drleewarren.substack.com.

Get the free newsletter every week for my best prescriptions for becoming healthier,

feeling better and being happier through the power of faith and neuroscience

smashing together via self-brain-serving, drleewarren.substack.com.

And if you need prayer, go to the prayer wall at wlewarrenmd.com slash prayer.

The theme music for the show is Make Us One by Tommy Walker,

graciously provided for free by the great folks over at TommyWalkerMinistries.org.

Check it out and consider supporting them, TommyWalkerMinistries.org.

Remember, you can't change your life until you change your mind,

and the good news is you can start today. I'm Dr. Lee Warren, I'll talk to you soon.

God bless you, friend. Have a great day.