Trauma Rounds: What to Say When Someone is Devastated

Good morning, my friend. I hope you're doing well. Dr. Lee Warren here in the

very first episode of Season 10 of the podcast.

We're getting close to 1,000 episodes since we started this thing back in 2014.

So grateful to have you here every day or almost every day with us.

We've been on a little break, and as we talked about yesterday on Frontal Lobe

Friday, that is coming to an end.

So we're starting Season 10 here, and normally I would do a a self-brain surgery

operation on a Saturday. But today I'm going to respond.

This is one of those sort of trauma rounds episodes. Every once in a while,

we get an email or something from somebody who's listening or somebody writes

in with an acute question, like something really real going on.

And I feel like it deserves a quick episode to just talk about it because it's

helpful to more than just one person.

And before we get into today's talk, because we're going to to have a conversation

about what to say when you're going to visit with somebody who's just gone through

a really hard thing like a death.

I got an email from a man named Dan, and we're going to address Dan's question

this morning as a trauma round, just a quick kind of little conversation about

what to do when something bad happens.

But before we get into that, a couple of things.

Number one, I've received several emails lately, and I do this once in a while.

We have to touch base, and I have to remind you that I am a doctor.

I'm a real-life board board-certified neurosurgeon with a practice in Nebraska,

and I take care of brain tumors and back pain and all kinds of things,

carpal tunnels and all kinds of things related to the nervous system.

But I'm not your doctor in the context of when we talk on the podcast about

things, we'll talk about anxiety or depression or substances or recovery or

grief or trauma or all those things.

I can give you some thoughts and I can give you some advice,

but I can't be your doctor, and I'm not a therapist.

So once in a while, somebody will write in and say something I've been like,

hey, can we talk offline? Can you call me or can we have a conversation about

this particular situation?

And I just, I need you to understand, number one.

The reach of this podcast is vast, and we have too many people asking those

kinds of questions for me to be fair to anybody, even if I could.

I can't. I don't have enough time out of my real life to have a one-on-one with

everybody who's listening. Obviously, you understand that.

But number two, it would be inappropriate and probably not legal for us to have

a specific conversation about your medical problem or your particular mental

issue or spiritual issue or whatever. We just can't do that.

So if you need somebody, and you do in your real life, you need to call your

therapist. You need to call your doctor.

You need to go see somebody. You need to talk to a pastor.

You need to talk to somebody in your world who can help you.

I can give you general advice, and sometimes I can reply to an email with an

episode or even write you back and give you some high-level things.

But I can't call you, and I can't certainly, as someone asked me to yesterday,

I can't send you medicine, okay? I know you understand that,

but I can't prescribe for you.

I can't be your doctor through the podcast, so please understand that.

So if we don't respond, and it's getting to where I can't respond personally

to every email, so we're going to have team members begin to do that.

So if I don't respond personally to you, still know that Lisa and Tata and I pray over these emails.

We talk about them. We care about you, and sometimes we'll address something

that comes up in the podcast with an episode about it, like we're going to do

today with Dan. So just respect the fact that there are some boundaries on this,

and we have to uphold those, obviously.

Second thing is, yesterday, also from Dan, I put it out there and said,

hey, this is an intro to the new Spiritual Brain Surgery podcast that's going

to launch next week, and I wanted to know your thoughts on it.

And I played an intro yesterday, and it was kind of a lower tempo,

lower energy thing because we're dealing with some spiritual things,

and it just felt a little heavier. So the first draft of that episode...

Intro rather, was a little bit more laid back than my normal.

And Dan said, hey, you know what? It reminded me of when I used to go to my

parents' house and they were watching the Lawrence Welk show.

It was kind of boring. So Lisa and I talked about that. And you know what?

That's not my typical style.

And even though we're talking about heavier things, we're still landing on hope

and happiness and peace and purpose and big things.

So here's another draft of the Spiritual Brain Brain Surgery Intro.

I want you to enjoy this. It's your podcast too, and we're doing it for you.

So let me know what you think about this intro. This will be for the Spiritual Brain Surgery Podcast.

We'll have our normal intro for season 10 of the podcast in a minute,

but see what you think about this one.

Let me know, speakpipe.com slash drleewarren. If you want to leave a voicemail,

you can email lee at drleewarren.com or leave a comment or wherever you listen

to podcasts or on YouTube.

Let's check it out. Here's the next

draft of a potential intro for the the Spiritual Brain Surgery Podcast.

When life gets hard, does what we think we believe hold us up,

or does it crumble under the weight of doubt?

I'm your host, Dr. Lee Warren. I'm a real-life brain surgeon,

author, and a guy just like you who's seen some stuff and wondered where God is in all this mess.

This is the Spiritual Brain Surgery Podcast, where we'll take a hard look at what we believe,

why we believe it, and the neuroscience behind how our minds and our brains

can smash together with faith to help us become healthier, feel better,

and be happier so we can find the hope to withstand anything life throws at us.

You've got questions, and we're going to do the hard work to find the answers.

But you can't change your life until you change your mind, and it's going to

take some spiritual brain surgery to get it done. So let's get after it.

Music.

What do you think about that? I like that one. It feels a little bit more like

me, and we're going to do some hard work in that podcast.

We're going to take the lid off of our noggins and look at how our brains work

with our faith and really get after it. So I like that one.

I haven't played it for Lisa yet. She hasn't heard that yet this morning,

so we'll see what you think, too, and we'll find just the right answer.

God always provides just the right thing at the right time. So,

okay. Got an email from Dan.

I'm not sure where Dan lives, but he's wrote in for the first time.

It says his wife shared the podcast with him after she heard me talking with

Susie Larson on her show.

And Dan wrote in, and this is a really heavy question. He has a friend whose

wife had a car accident, whose wife's daughter rather had a car accident.

The daughter's a young lady, 24 years old, has a newborn baby.

And the young lady died in the car accident. The baby is okay.

But now the husband has a baby and is widowed.

And so the question Dan had is, what do we say when something tragic like this,

something devastating like this happens?

And we're going to go over and visit with this young man with the baby and our

friends who just lost their granddaughter or their daughter,

rather. And now they have a granddaughter to help raise.

And it's just devastating. So what do you do? What do you say?

He said, can you teach us how to communicate effectively in such an unexpected

situation? That is a great question.

John Swanson and I have talked about this on the podcast a few times.

John, by the way, has written an incredible small little book,

a resource for chaplains and other people called This Is Hard.

You can go to Amazon. I think on Kindle Unlimited, I think you can get it for free.

But John has written a little book that addresses this very specific question in a beautiful way.

And this is hard. And this is hard because that's one of the things that John

as a very experienced trauma counselor and pastor and hospital chaplain has

learned that one of the best things you say to people is, this is hard.

This is so hard. And Tata and I have talked about it a million times.

He was a hospital chaplain for years.

And I've been at the bedside delivering news and getting news with families

when something devastating happens.

And I've been in the receiving end of it when our son died.

This is hard. It's a great place to start, Dan.

But I thought of four things, just four little bullet points that I think will

be easy to remember, and I'll put them in the transcript of the show notes.

You can always read the transcript.

And I'll put these in there. And I just thought of four ways to say this.

And really, you could sum it all up with Romans 12 and verse 15.

Romans 12 is one of our self-brain surgery chapters. Of course,

Romans 12 says don't be conformed to the world, but rather be transformed by

the renewing of your mind, and then you'll be able to test and approve what

God's will is and all that. So the idea is...

Romans chapter 12 gives us some bullet points on good ways to live as people of faith.

And verse 15 gives us a one-sentence perfect thing to do in a situation like this.

You're going to visit somebody who's just gone through a devastating thing.

Romans 12, 15 says, Rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep.

Notice what it doesn't say. It doesn't say show up and preach to them.

It doesn't say show up and talk all day to them. It doesn't say,

tell them God must have needed another angel.

It says, weep with those who weep. And I think that's a great place to start. This is so hard.

Cry with people. And I thought of four little things that should be easy to remember.

John said it this way too, I think, one time. Number one, what to say after

a devastating situation to someone who's gone through something hard,

a massive thing, a trauma, a tragedy, loss of a child, loss of a spouse, loss of a parent.

Number one, show up and shut up. Do go.

Show up. presence is powerful, okay? The people who came, we still remember.

I can probably remember every single one of them. And I can remember the people

who did not come, people who were close to us that didn't show up,

family member, really of all of our family, really one primary family member

that didn't show up when my son died.

And I haven't forgotten that. It's just not that I can't forgive.

It's just that you don't forget the people who show up for you and the people who do not.

So show up and shut up. Just show up. Wrap your arms around people.

Hug them. Say, Say, this is so hard. Weep with those who weep.

That's a good place to start.

Number two, tears over talking.

Like people knowing that you care, they're seeing that you're upset with them.

You're weeping with those who weep and you're not filling them with words that they have to process.

Because right then in the acute phase after this trauma, this massive thing

has happened, you can't really process things.

When people are just talking and talking and talking, it's like a brain hammer.

All you can hear is the sound of their voice and you wish they would stop.

And you don't want to have to think of a courteous response and you don't want

to have to engage and you just want somebody to say, this is so hard, I'm really sorry.

Number three, and this is really important, friend, even if you've been through

something similar, okay, happens all the time with bereaved parents.

They come over. We had a conversation with Dale and Joe Margarets,

the people we bought this beautiful place here from, and their son died of a

glioblastoma when he was a young man.

And Dale said it just right. Don't tell me that you know how I feel because

you don't know how I feel. you.

We have a whole history with our son that's different than the history that

you had with your daughter or with your mom or whoever you lost.

And it's not the same. And your child died and my child died.

They died in different circumstances. You don't know how I feel.

So empathy over equivalence. Okay.

Put yourself in the position. What would it feel like to have my wife die in

a car accident and I've got the baby, but not the wife. And I've got to raise our child all alone.

That's a devastating situation. You can get inside that person's head and you

can understand that they are wrecked right now, but they don't need to hear

you say that you understand what they're going through.

Oh, well, my wife died too, so I know what you feel. No, you don't.

You don't know what that feels like.

So empathy over equivalence, this goes back into the first two points,

show up and shut up and tears over talking and empathy over equivalence.

Don't tell them that you know how they feel, okay? You don't.

You know what it feels like to have lost your child. You know what it feels

like to have lost your spouse.

You know what it felt like to you to have lost your parent.

You do not know what that young man feels like to have just lost his wife and

have the baby alive and well, and he's gotten out to put a family together without his partner.

You don't know what he feels there.

And even if you had something like

that happen, You may have a different spiritual situation than he does.

You may have had a different relationship with your spouse than he does.

Maybe they had a big fight that morning and he's worried that she was thinking

about that instead of being careful in the car.

Maybe she was distracted because of the argument that they had.

I'm not saying that happened with them. I'm just saying there's a way to understand

that your situation and their situation are not the same.

So empathize. Don't make it equivalent.

Okay? It really hurts when somebody says, I know exactly why you feel it.

No, you don't. You don't know how they feel.

So empathy over equivalence. And the last one is this, and I tried to noodle

out how exactly to say this, but it's important, especially Christians when

we show up, we can't help ourselves almost.

We almost can't help ourselves. We start using Scripture.

We start saying things about God that we believe are applicable here.

And this is where you hear people say things like.

I guess God needed her more than you did, or God must have needed another angel,

or at least he's in a better place now, or, well, he's not suffering,

or those kinds of things.

Or all this will work together for good for those who love the Lord,

Romans 8, 28. Don't say that.

So the way I would come up with this sentence is this. Theology in a grieving

situation is kind of like salt.

It needs to be correctly applied in very small amounts, and it needs to be high

quality or it can hurt more than it helps.

If you put bad salt in a recipe, it's going to taste bad and nobody's going to be able to eat it.

If you put way too much salt in a recipe, it's going to be too salty and nobody's

going to eat it. It ruins it, okay?

If you don't use it properly, if you put salt where sugar needs to be,

you don't get a good result. So theology is kind of like salt.

Yes, it's okay to say God loves you, God cares about you, God will not abandon

you, He is close to the brokenhearted.

Those kinds of things are helpful in the right time, in the right context.

But certain things of theology are not appropriate at those times,

okay? Well, God never makes a mistake.

That'd be a horrible thing to say to somebody in that situation. Yes, it's true.

It's not kind right there. Remember the tests of thoughts and things that we

say that I got from Seth Godin, who got it from Ursula Le Guin,

the writer, said, test a thought before you write it, before before you share it, is it true?

Is it necessary or helpful?

Is it compassionate or at least unharmful? Put those filters in place.

Is it true what I'm about to say? Does God really need another angel?

Well, first of all, that's bad theology.

People don't become angels when they die. They don't. If you think they do,

you need to read your Bible.

Don't be one of those Christians that knows more about what people say than

what the Bible says, because people do not become angels when they die. They don't.

And so saying something like that, my little angel is up in heaven,

it's not helpful because it isn't true, okay?

If God needed another angel, he could certainly create one.

He wouldn't have to take my child to have another.

And if so, then he's a bully, right? If he's going to take my kid because he

needs another angel when he has the power to make another angel, it's not true.

It's bad theology and it's harmful in that situation. So don't use those kinds of words, okay?

So the overarching theme here is weep with those who weep.

Go and be present and show up and don't feel like you have to talk.

Our natural inclination is to fill the silence with our words.

And what people need is to fill the silence with our electromagnetic field,

our empathy, our care, our concern, our love, and not with our words.

Yes, you can say, you know, if you feel like praying, I would love to pray with

you. If you just know that we are praying for you.

If you want to talk, I'll be here. You know my cell phone number if you feel

like talking, if you want to scream, if you want a cup of coffee,

you want to yell, you want to go for a walk, I'm here for you, whatever you need.

My friend Zane Kirkland, who's a brilliant, beautiful, amazing man,

loves the Lord, great family, worked with us in Auburn for 12 years.

And Zane showed up shortly after Mitch died, as soon as he heard it.

And he literally embraced the two of us, wrapped his arms around me and Lisa.

So he got there before hardly anybody else, before any of our family had arrived,

except for Nanny and Tata, Dennis and Patty, Lisa's parents.

Zane showed up, and he wrapped his arms around us, and he said.

I'm going to go sit over there in that corner, and I'm going to stay.

And when you need something, you tell me, and I'll take care of it.

And that is literally all he said after I'm so sorry.

And for several days, Zane showed up, and he sat there. And once in a while,

somebody would say, oh, we're out of toilet paper. Oh, we're out of paper cups.

Oh, we need X, Y, or Z.

And Zane would say, I got it. And he would go take care of it.

And he didn't talk. And he didn't fill us up with theological dissertations.

He didn't tell us he knew how we felt.

Even though his family had gone through a miscarriage, he knew what it was like

for them to have lost an unborn child.

But he didn't say, I know exactly how you feel. I lost a child too. He just showed up.

And he shared tears with us. and he empathized, but he didn't try to make it the same.

And he didn't apply a bunch of theology like dumping salt all over the top of the cake.

He just showed up. And it was probably the most helpful thing that he could have done.

So Dan, the long answer to your short question is care, show up, be present.

Don't feel like you have to talk. Don't try to find some way to tell them that

you understand what they're feeling because you really don't.

So don't try to make it equivalent with something you felt before.

And don't put a bunch of theology on top of it. Just show up and shut up and say, this is hard.

And weep with those who weep. And that's a great Trauma Rounds look at a common,

sadly common problem of what to do when somebody is devastated after another

trauma or tragedy or massive thing. We all go through them.

And we don't really have a plan in place for what to do when somebody else feels them.

It's okay to share books, too, okay? Like my book, Hope is the First Dose,

would probably be helpful to these people, but it's not going to be helpful right now.

And if you give it to them right now, a couple of things will happen.

One is they'll look a little confused, and they'll say, do you really think

I feel like reading a book right now?

Number two, they will set it aside, and they will not read it,

and probably it will get buried in a pile, and they may not ever.

In fact, I got an email yesterday from a woman. It was a Facebook message.

By the way, please don't send me messages on Facebook. I'm terrible. I don't check Facebook.

This lady sent this in early December. I just saw it yesterday.

So if you want to reach me, you can send me an Instagram message.

I will see that, at least when I see that.

More helpful, though, would be for you to send me an email, leah.dr.leewarren.com,

or send a voicemail if you want us to hear your voice, speakpipe.com slash dr.leewarren.

I'll actually see those or hear those messages in a timely fashion.

But this woman wrote in early December that her father had died of a glioblastoma

back in 2018 or 19, I think.

And sometime after that, her doctor gave her a copy of my book,

I've seen the interview, which is about how to find hope in hopeless situations like brain tumors.

And it was early in the grieving process and she didn't read it.

She put it aside and didn't think about it.

And she just found it a few weeks ago and read it here years later and wrote

to me to say how helpful it has been in her ongoing grief journey.

So So my point about that is books can be helpful, but they are not helpful in the acute phase.

And so you probably have a higher impact if you really know that person and give them a book later.

We had a pastor show up the day after our son died with four books that his

church gave out about grief.

And he said, hey, you'll read these. They're going to be helpful to you.

And I was like, really? Are you kidding me? He gave me four things to do while

I'm trying to get over losing my son.

I didn't say that, of course, but that's what it was. Plus, another person gave

us a huge, massive, thick Timothy Keller book about death and dying and suffering

a couple days after Mitch died.

And what's funny is years later I read that, and it turned out to be probably

the most helpful thing I've ever read, The Walking with God Through Pain and

Suffering by Timothy Keller.

But I didn't read it for years after we lost our son.

So books can be helpful. Theology can be helpful.

Talking can be helpful. Taking people out to dinner can be helpful.

But none of that stuff is what you do today when the massive

thing just now happens show up and shut up tears over

talking empathy over equivalence theology is like salt and that my friend will

help you be there for somebody else show up when they need you help them when

they're hurting you're going to weep with those who weep and don't forget to start today.